Creating Permanent Profitability with Ron Saharyan, Profit First CEO

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On this week’s episode, we’re joined by special guest Ron Saharyan, CEO of Profit First and Co-Founder of Profit First Professionals. 

Ron talks with Stephen, Wade and Rob about how contractors can implement the Profit First method successfully, how you can take your profit first as the owner of your construction company and still improve your bonding ability, how Profit First can protect you from both seasonal fluctuations and major economic events, and why you should consider working with a Certified Profit First Professional like Wade or Rob to implement Profit First.

Want a free copy of the Profit First book? Ron is giving copies away to the first 5 people to reach out to us after this episode! Just shoot an email to RobWade or Stephen to claim your copy!

Don’t forget to subscribe so you don’t miss future episodes.

Rob Williams, Profit Strategist |
Wade Carpenter, CPA, CGMA |
Stephen Brown, Bonding Expert |


Rob Williams: [00:00:00]  Welcome to the Contractor Success Forum. Today we have with us, the CEO of profit first Ron Saharyan, who is eradicating entrepreneurial poverty around the globe. Today, we will be asking Ron how Profit First can create permanent profitability in your contracting business. We’ll be talking about improving your bonding ability while still taking your profit first as the owner of your contracting company. 

Here on the Contractor Success Forum, we discuss financial strategies for running a more profitable, successful construction business. I’m so excited about our show today. You should be too. Why don’t you go ahead and share our show with your friends right now so you won’t miss a thing from this amazing episode. Check out our show notes on our show page 

In addition to Ron, our three long-term construction industry professionals are Wade Carpenter with Carpenter and Company, CPAs, helping contractors nationwide to become permanently profitable over 30 years. Stephen Brown, a construction bond agent with McDaniel-Whitley Bonding and Insurance Agency with over 30 years of experience underwriting and placing bonds for you as contractors. And I’m Rob Williams, your profit strategist with IronGate Entrepreneurial Support Systems, driving profit in contractors’ businesses with decades of vertical integration as a contractor, a manufacturer, an aviator and financial strategist in the construction industry. Ron, welcome to our show. We’re so happy to have you here today, man.

Ron Saharyan: [00:01:53] Yeah, I’m jacked as well. What a great opening!  You guys are pros, man. This is awesome. I’m excited.

I bet you didn’t know that I was a laborer back in the day. I used to also drive backhoes, trackhoes, and dug a lot of ditches and picked up a lot of construction yards, then moved into the welding world. I used to make industrial sized ovens, washers, conveyor systems.

Rob Williams: [00:02:15] I think you and I had kind of mentioned that because yeah. I spent a lot of my time digging ditches and doing all the jobs that dad couldn’t get anybody else to do when I was 12 years old to 20 years old.

Ron Saharyan: [00:02:27] That, that’s how I learned how to drive a stick on a, on a yard, you know, you know, and this was through high school and college I did this stuff. And so, you know, here I am, me and my buddy were probably 14 years old and we’re on a big construction site. And the guy’s like, Hey, go get that truck, pick it up and go over here. And we’re like, We don’t drive. He’s like, you’re not on a road. Just get into truck and drive it. We’re like, all right. So we had to figure out how to drive a stick on the yard.

Rob Williams: [00:02:55] Oh, that’s right. Yeah. I can remember driving a dump truck when I was 15, 16 years old. And I can’t remember what all I hit, but I know that a few things were damaged and I think some missing mail boxes and a few other things.

Ron Saharyan: [00:03:09] I, I say that because, you know, I I’ve seen construction companies over the years coming up. I’ve seen some very, very, very hardworking, smart individuals make some miscalculations only because of a lack of education, not because of a lack of passion but also  not having the proper systems in place. And not having clear financial perspective, not having clarity on your finances and how you’re actually spending your money moving forward. And so, that’s why I’m excited to be here to hopefully help the industry have a little bit more fiscal understanding and be able to pay themselves first, have money for the tax man and a profit.

Rob Williams: [00:03:45] Yeah. And that’s such an interesting concept because you know, Stephen talk a little bit, maybe you have some questions for Ron  about the name Profit First.

Stephen Brown: [00:03:55] Thanks, Rob. And thanks Ron. I, you know, I’m glad you asked that because the whole thing about profit First that might kind of touch a bond underwriter the wrong way would be to think that contractors are going to take all their profit out of their company and not leave in any working capital, you know, to finance their projects. Ron, how do you work around that?

Ron Saharyan: [00:04:17] So one of the things, especially with the bonding; if you’re being asked to purchase a bond, okay. You have to have X amount of money of working capital at all time. I look at it almost as an inventory account. What I would look to do is set up a bonding account. Open up a bonding account that the only thing that you can use that money in that bank account is for bonding, right?

It’s almost like being your own banker if you will. And so this is something that you’re going to have to build up over time, over time, over time, but Profit First, our methodology is you’re all familiar with sales minus expenses equals profit, right? Sell, sell, sell, manage your expenses, and what you have left over is your profit. Right. Structurally correct. Behaviorly wrong. We’re saying sell, sell, sell, take your profit first. Manage your business on the expenses leftover. Now I want a clarifier. That “P”, that profit, is representative, not just of profit, but it’s ensuring that: One, the business owner is paying themselves. Two, we are reserving money for tax, regardless of what the liabilities are. Three, of course, we’re going to have a profit and we’re going to determine what that profit is. We’re going to have a fixed profit potentially. Four, we’re going to have a vault. I always recommend that most businesses should have -and households- three to six months of operating capital in case there’s an emergency of some sort.

This is in addition to the bonding account. 

Stephen Brown: [00:05:46] Right. And that, that bonding account, Ron, would just be just working capital to finance projects, right?

Ron Saharyan: [00:05:53] It’s basically, ensuring that there’s money available in case things go wrong, correct? That’s that’s what we’re talking about here? It’s like an insurance policy, okay. And, and so, if we look at things through a little different perspective and always have the right amount of core capital available that we need, that the bonding agent is requiring, we’re going to need that core capital all the time. Right? And so when, when we’re drawing out of it, we’re drawing on it. We have to replenish it. We’re drawing on it. We have to replenish it. What I’m saying is, how great would it be to be able to have some sort of, you know, capital that is solely for the bond, whether it’s CDs, whether it’s cash, whether it’s this, whether it’s 10 million, because  you were saying earlier, Steve, some of your contractors have about eight projects going on. And so if each one of them needs to have a $10 million bond, is, is that, is that what we’re saying here? Because that’s going to be very difficult for any construction company to have each project be bonded. So if you could share with me a little bit more about how that would look, I might be able to tweak what I’m saying.

Stephen Brown: [00:07:04] The way the bonding companies look at it, Ron, is they say, okay, we would like to see you have 10% working capital to help you get through your tough spots, to help you finance your projects of your backlog cost to complete.  And Wade, what he does as a construction oriented CPA versus a non-construction oriented CPA is he understands that at the corporate year-end, say, December 31st, there are completed projects on his financial statement and projects that are in process. 

And he usually puts a schedule to show us what jobs were completed in the prior year and what jobs are currently underway. And that’s what the bonding companies look for. They look at completed jobs to see, well, originally we talked about you making X amount of profit and you lost money on that job. What happened? And then the jobs in progress, they look for profit fades that may occur, that they anticipate, and they adjust their underwriting books based on that information. Did that help any?

Ron Saharyan: [00:08:06] Yes, it does. Thank you. And so the issue is the lack of completed jobs, right? That’s one of the things that we’re, we’re trying to minimize. And so, my experience and what I’ve seen is a lot of contractors are utilizing another project’s deposit to complete the project that they’re already in.

Right. And that’s a deadly 

Stephen Brown: [00:08:27] cycle.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Ron Saharyan: [00:08:28] Yup. It’s a horrible cycle. And so that’s one of the things that we want to prevent. We want to ensure that projects are done on time and completed and have a margin, a margin of profitability. So, one of the things is we don’t have to just look at architecting the cashflow into bank accounts to prevent the pains, but we want to take an insider look and really look at what the contractor is doing.

How are they managing the money going forward? Are they bidding the project out right? Are they overstaffed? Are some of their machines in repair? What what’s going on internally in these companies that we could implement some systems that would ensure a  smoother completion of the job. And  I get it because a lot of construction companies, they’re not necessarily focused on the financial aspect of it. They’re focusing on the task at hand. And so sometimes if things aren’t planned right, you’re going to get unions involved. You’re going to get the big telecoms involved. Stuff’s going to stop. Potentially. And so, is that baked into any type of proposal?  Do we have a, are we really looking at, okay, this is a $5 million job, you know, I’d like to make X amount of profit. What is that profit percentage? 2%? 3%?

 Then we have the owner’s pay account, right? How much should the owner be making on this job? This particular job, that’s the profit and the owner’s pay. Then, if it’s a successful implementation and build out, we’re going to have a profit, so we’re going to have to pay taxes on that profit.

So  if we have these predetermined percentages of what we’re allowed to spend in each one of these purposeful accounts, then those are our guardrails in place. And so what we want to do is, if the construction owner looks in his bank account and he sees that he’s got, you know, $2 million sitting in there,  he probably doesn’t realize that some of that money should be going to the bonding. Some of that money probably should go to profit. Some of that money should be going to tax. Some of that money should be going to him. And so that $2,000 really isn’t $2,000.  It might be a, a thousand dollars. 

When we remove the money that is not really available to us to complete projects and to operate projects, we’re forced because of something called Parkinson’s law. And basically what that says is that human beings are going to use the amount of resources given to them in any period of time. Stephen Hawkins was talking about it about human beings are going to exhaust all the resources on planet earth.  That’s how we are. So if you give me a project of $2 million and tell me to build this building in a year, I’m going to probably spend $2 million and it’s going to take a year, maybe a little longer right now, if you gave me the same project and say, it’s $1 million and you got to do it in, you know, 18 months. I’m going to take 18 months and I’m spending $1 million. It’s just the way it is. 

So what we’re saying is let’s take this money off the top and allocate it specifically, and we can’t use this money. The only money we can use is what’s in that operating account. And so that will, from a behavioral standpoint, put guardrails in place for overextending, overspending. And the business owner be able to look and say, okay, well, I don’t, I only have a thousand. Maybe I should talk to this contractor and you know, negotiate a little bit better. Maybe I can look at a different supplier that can give me the same good. Maybe I can set up another core capital account that I can make  mass inventory purchases at a discount. 

And so we’ll have the bonding account. You might even have an inventory account. You have the owner’s pay account. You have the profit account, you have the tax account, you have boom, the operating account.

And so what I’m sharing is a little bit like the 401k.  Why is the 401k one of the most successful saving vehicles in America? Because we take it off the top and we don’t see it. And we have penalties in place if we go to get it. And so when I first started the 401k with my wife in ’96, ’97, you know, we were like, what is this stuff?

And so we didn’t put 15% in. We put 3% in. Then we put 5% in. The next year, we’re up to 15% each. And I remember saying to my wife, Mary, can you believe we’re living the same lifestyle with 30% of our top line salaries being taken right off the top? And so It’s a funny thing that happens, right?

When resources are less, we’re going to be more creative. We’re going to work harder. We’re going to try to get more from it. What the Profit First system allows contractors is true clarity on what their financial spend is. It’s a front windshield approach to how they allocate their money. And they’re able to look in their bank account and see the OpEx and make business decisions on what to spend. If the money in the OpEx is not there and you want to buy something, well, that’s telling you can’t do it. That’s why Profit First also is a growth strategy.

You can’t take 20% off and just put it in all these bank accounts. You have to work with guys like Wade, guys like Rob to really understand what those percentages are going to be. And so these guys are the experts that are going to architect the cashflow. And Profit First to support what the bonding is looking for. The bonding agent, as well as the Contractor being fiscally responsible.

Rob Williams: [00:14:09] Man. That’s great. What do you think about that, Stephen? Does that help probably explain this a lot better than maybe I have in the past?

Stephen Brown: [00:14:16] It sure does. And you know, the whole thing is the reason the bond account is working capital is that capital’s supposed to work for you. In other words, a lot of times, as a contractor, you’re forced to finance a project. And what we said before in our podcast is you’ve got to communicate to the owner that I’m building the project; I’m not financing the project. But I love the whole idea of having a separate account. And it is working capital. That’s what drives it. And, and you can think of it as bonding because it’s the magic that unleashes bonds, 10% working capital opens doors and makes magical things happen in the bond world.

And I love it, that that’s an expense that you think about and you can set aside. You can use it if you have to, but only in a situation where it’s not taking away the profit that you’re already planning on making.

Ron Saharyan: [00:15:15] It’s like a line of credit. Right. So a line of credit can be beautiful. It also can be disastrous. I, I’m not a fan of people running their business on a line of credit, always. That’s telling me that their business is not fiscally healthy. Because they’re always drawing on this emergency fund. That’s what it is. It’s an emergency fund that if you need it, it’s a safety net. So, you know, I have lines of credit. You guys probably have lines of credit. It’s a safety net. I don’t want to use it, but if I have to use it, it’s there. 

We want to change the mindset of contractors. A lot of contractors are looking at this as their sole source of operating income, where it shouldn’t be the sole source of operating income. They should have a healthy expense that can do it. This is a supplemental account for, “Oh crap. Something happened wrong here.” But by having the clarity  in how you’re spending the money, you can, you can do it. You have materials and subs . You can have even an insurance, right. You can have a liability. Some of these contractors, these big, big, big jobs, you know what the insurance cost on that stuff is? It’s expensive, right? So one of the things Mike and I have, we have partners insurance on each other and you know, it’s expensive and worth it. And we paid it, and then the next year we’re like, Oh crap, this is due again. We totally forgot about it. It happens. And so we’re like, because we run lean and mean we didn’t have 15, 20 grand. Yeah. And the bank account that was specifically available out of our operating account. And so we’re like, Oh crap, what do we do?

Well, we have a year of operating capital at all times. For exactly this. Take that money out. Boom. Did it. Okay. Never going to happen again. How is this never going to happen again? Well, we’re going to have an Insurance account.  And we’re going to use the money coming on in to always fund these accounts that we have here. And so, Insurance came due again this year. Hey Carol, I think we have an Insurance account because if not, I’m going to go crazy. Yup. You got an Insurance account. Here you go. Right? 

But also some of the things that contractors need to be aware of is, a lot of them feel as though their business is the retirement. And I’m going to sell my business, it’s worth $5 million. I’m going to retire. Most of the time, the businesses aren’t worth what they think they are, and that’s a flawed strategy. So one of the things is, is you can architect this to help with your future retirement. You can open up a separate bank account for a 401k, and then take that money, and the only thing you can do with that money is put it in a 401k. You can have that funded into a Safe Harbor account, or you could take it out of a vault or your core capital account.

There’s a lot of unique ways that guys like Wade and Rob can work with the contractors to ensure that they have the clarity that they need,  not only to alleviate the pains that they’re facing, but let’s talk about the wants. What do you want from this business? Did this business afford you and your family the lifestyle that you’ve always wanted? If not, what would that lifestyle be like?

The business is the number one wealth growing opportunity that most people have. So let’s do everything in our power to make it as fiscally healthy as we possibly can. Not only today to ensure that, you know, we’re going to complete our jobs, but to ensure that we’re looking down the road far enough to support our retirement lifestyle.

Rob Williams: [00:18:35] Oh yeah, that’s amazing. So, Wade. I know you got some questions.

Wade Carpenter: [00:18:40] I mean, there was some things that I want Ron’s take on. Businesses are very cyclical and construction in particular can be very brutal. 10 years ago with the great recession, I had a lot of contractors fail and there are ups and downs in cashflow in construction.

So can you give us an idea of one, things that Profit First helps guard against with ups and downturns of the economy, as well as, I know you guys did some great work with  that recession response stuff, when COVID hit. I’d love for our listeners to hear some more about how Profit First helps guard against some of that stuff.

Ron Saharyan: [00:19:20] So I’m going to get on my high horse here, all right. We need to learn from the mistakes of our past. This pandemic sucks. The recession sucked, but here’s the thing in America. We’re faced with regional disasters every single year. 

Look at the Gulf coast, they’re going to get crushed by hurricanes. The Midwest is going to flood. Tornado alley. California is probably burning as I’m talking right now. All of these regional disasters are decimating households and companies. How Profit First can help is by having a vault account. Having that core capital to survive.

Additionally here on the East coast, we have a lot of seasonal businesses. So if a business is making its money in the first six months of a year, and then they’re limping along the last couple of months, maybe they have to lay off people they’re this, that, they’re scared. Well, there is a mechanism we could use, which is a drip account, which would be to make that money last over a 12 month period. That’s money unearned, we look at it. So we’re a membership organization. If somebody pays in full, which we don’t offer anymore, but if somebody paid in full, and I put that investment into our OPEX, that’s money unearned. Month by month, it’s earned. If that person leaves and I have to give them some of their money back, I have to then take money away that I already spent.

So what the drip account does it drips that money in systematically over 12 months to let that money last. So you’re going to have to do a little bit more analysis to see what it would look like and what those positions would be. And so now  that the companies that had been operating Profit First realize that  they can’t operate, but because they’ve been squirreling money away over the past couple of years into these various accounts, they have a healthy amount of total cash available at all of these different bank accounts. They’re not going to need 15% in tax, but they have that tax money sitting aside, sitting there. They’re not going to need that operating capital because there’s not thing to operate. But they have that money there so they can weather the storm. You could take the IDA loans, the PPP loans, all that stuff is great. And what I recommend if you’ve made it this far and you really haven’t drawn any of that money, don’t spend it, put it in a bond account, right? Put it in a core capital account. That’s your savings. That’s your rainy day. That’s your Oh shit. That’s your okay, pandemic hit. But it’s also a way that, Hey, if things go quick, you get that next bid. You have that core capital available to start working again. 

Rob Williams: [00:22:01] And that drip account, I was just thinking about that for what we were talking about, robbing Peter to pay Paul that’s what happens if you don’t have that drip account going, you’ve run out. So not only for that purpose, but also that  Peter to pay Paul scenario, it’ll help solve that. So hopefully that’s another good tip for the underwriters.

Stephen Brown: [00:22:21] Well, you know, most of us know what it’s like to have to borrow a little bit and next thing you know, you’re a slave to making those payments on top of everything else. And then you you’ve got four or five projects go in and you get a little bit of money on, well, when I’m anticipating this coming in on that, well, there’s a cost to finance.

There’s a cost involved that you’ve got to pay at some point. And so I love the idea of Profit First saying, let’s, let’s try to manage this. And I can tell you that the bonding companies would absolutely love a contractor that practices this kind of concept. And you say, well, who cares what they think? It just opens amazing opportunities for you, at least from a bonded project standpoint. It breeds upon the success. If you’ve got this program in place and you’re getting more bonds, you’re getting more opportunities to jump on projects where a bond is required. That’s why I think this goes together so perfectly guys. 

Ron Saharyan: [00:23:16] Right. And one of the things too, that, you know, you just triggered in my mind, alone is negative profit. You’re not profitable if you have a loan. It’s that simple, right? If you gotta run your business by continually seeking loans, there’s something wrong with your business.

That’s where really taking an internal look and seeing what’s going on and lifting up the hood because taking loan after bad loan, after bad loan, after bad loan, the percentages are going to add up. And so there goes your margin. If you’re running thin margins and you’re taking loans, and then you’ve got to repay the loan with the VIG on it, you just sit, you shoot yourself in the foot,

Rob Williams: [00:23:59] Yeah. Particularly if you’re taking those loans to pay for your overhead in your expenses, not necessarily to-

Ron Saharyan: [00:24:04] Or even to, or even to fund the next project.

Rob Williams: [00:24:07] Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and a lot of times in these contractors, they’re actually getting paid draws as opposed to maybe the residential guys, where they have to get those loans. They own the project while it’s going, you know, so they have to get those loans, which is a lot different. So being careful to distinguish and pay attention to what your loans are in your business, contractors. Are they to finance your operating expenses or are they strictly to finance that job that you’re getting? Wade, what else you got on that?


Wade Carpenter: [00:24:39] Yeah. I mean, we see it all the time. And one of the things that Profit First taught me that I never thought about is,  so many contractors in any business, they want to pay zero in tax. And one of the concepts is, you’ve got to have profit to pay that loan back. It doesn’t come from anywhere else. Otherwise you got to borrow it from somewhere else. So.

Ron Saharyan: [00:25:01] And I see that all the time in that industry all the time, I hate paying taxes. I hate paying taxes – you hate paying taxes because you don’t have the money to pay taxes. And so, you know, having a tax account set aside, and having to pay a couple hundred thousand dollars in taxes means you’re probably making a million. So if you want to make gobs and gobs of money, look at paying taxes as a badge of honor, right? Wade, it’s going to do everything in his power to minimize your taxes, minimize it, but not at the jeopardy of hurting the company. 

An example is my buddy has a $3 million company and he supplies autos to film, print, television, stuff like that. For the past 20 years he’s been paying no taxes. It’s  not really a healthy company, but it’s a cash cow for him. Making a couple of hundred thousand, which is nice. He takes loans out of the business, buy property, you know, all sorts of stuff that he’s doing. 

Well, about five years ago, he had an opportunity to purchase something, a truck. And he went to his bank and they’re like, dude, your finances are a mess. You have no profit, you have loans. You’re paying us back yes, on time, but no, we’re not giving it. They wouldn’t give him 50 grand, but he couldn’t get a loan of 50 grand for a bank he’s been working with for over 20 years. He was fuming. He called alternative lenders. They’re like, no, your finances are horrible. And then he had to go to, you know, J Rocco, okay. To get his money. Right. All right. 

He got the money, but he was so angry and frustrated and his business, it’s sucking the life out of him. He goes, I’m selling it. He paid money- and Wade, how much is an evaluation roughly, to a real valuation on the company to do due diligence, you know? 15-20 thousand? Yeah.

Wade Carpenter: [00:26:49] It be very expensive.

Ron Saharyan: [00:26:51] Right. He paid, he did that. They showed him what his company was worth. He’s like, no way, this is wrong. They’re like, no, this is it. He’s like, Oh crap. 

If he sold that business,  he would not make the money that he needed to live his lifestyle. And so why do people buy companies? Projected cashflow. Systems. Profitability.  So over the last five years Joe’s been implementing fiscal responsibility, Profit First.  He’s been, you know, really getting clarity. He knows he needs to show a profit. He’s showing a profit and five years later, he doesn’t want to sell this company anymore. It’s going to be an annuity for him. 

It’s breaking that mindset in that cycle. It’s the change that needs to happen. And positive change is very difficult. So if you’ve been doing the same thing over and over the past couple of years, and you’re not happy, well, guess what? Stop doing it and do something different. This is not going to hurt you. If anything, it’s going to help you.

Rob Williams: [00:27:50] You know, how can these benefit – And I’m asking you, Ron, because you’re the head of all of us Mastery Certified Profit First Professionals like Wade and I, how do these guys benefit from having somebody like us?

Ron Saharyan: [00:28:06] Oh my God. So, the book itself, that’s the tip of the iceberg. Everything below that waterline is what a Profit First Professional is doing. I could read a book on how to wire a house. I could read a book on how to drive a backhoe, how to, you know, run a construction company. But is that something I really should be doing? Like I know how to change a socket in a switch, but I don’t know how to run cable to wire a garage fully, but I’m sure I could read a book and watch YouTube how to do it. If I was a chiropractor, I could read how to crack my back. Would a chiropractor advise that, would a construction electrician advise me doing this all stuff myself? No. And so guys like Wade and Rob are doing this on a daily basis. They’re doing it with multiple companies and they’re doing it within their own business. They’ve gone through significant training, practicing. They have to remain in good standings. It’s not easy to get Profit First certified. They’re one of a select few experts that know how to go off script. How to use the craftsman’s tools of their trade.  How to really architect this stuff that you’re not going to get in the book.

 These guys are like personal trainers. You could go to the gym and you could figure it out and you’d be uncomfortable. Might not go every day. You know, these guys are your trainers. They’re going to ensure that you’re going to get the results faster and more successful without hurting yourself and to hold you accountable. That’s what you get when you’re working with a master member. 

Wade Carpenter: [00:29:35] One of the things I tell people: my last name’s Carpenter, but you don’t want me doing any construction around your house.

Ron Saharyan: [00:29:43] The last time I used my welding helmet was to look at an eclipse. So, you know, it did work. It was pretty good.

Rob Williams: [00:29:51] Right. Well, man, this has been an amazing show and this is great. I know we went way over, but thank you guys for continuing to listen to us on today’s show. Because this has been one of our best shows I know that we’ve had so far.

Ron Saharyan: [00:30:02] And I got a gift for you guys. F For the first five people that reach, reach out to any three of these gentlemen, I’ll gift them a copy of Profit First.

Rob Williams: [00:30:10] Oh man, thanks! That’s great.

Ron Saharyan: [00:30:13] Rob, just Rob Wade, Steve first five.

Rob Williams: [00:30:18] That’s great. So go to ContractorSuccessForum.Com and get our show notes or  go to CarpenterCPAs.Com on Wade’s page or my page is, but you can find all that, we got the stuff in the show notes to get in touch with us.

So that’s, that’s great. So again, man that’s, that’s a great, great-

Ron Saharyan: [00:30:40] Yeah. And just put it in a, in a subject. I want one of the first five books, send it over to those guys and I’ll be more than happy to gift it.

Rob Williams: [00:30:46] Oh man. That’s great. 

Wade Carpenter: [00:30:47] Thank you, Ron.

Ron Saharyan: [00:30:49] Thank you guys.

Rob Williams: [00:30:50]
So again, we have Ron Saharyan, he’s the CEO of Profit First, eradicating entrepreneurial poverty all over the world. And Wade Carpenter, Carpenter and Company, CPAs, CarpenterCPAs.Com, and Stephen Brown is his web page. So look at the show notes, get in touch with us, share it with your friends and come back and listen to our next episode.

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